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need a shoulder

Just back from the hv and im so upset, hope you don't mind me getting it all off my chest here-everyones in work so ive no one else to talk to until tonight.

lo was 25th centile at birth and is now 9th, as you probably know he's not sleeping through, he's nowhere near-we've been back to 3/4 feeds a night for the last month but ive been going with the flow and trusting that he'll drop the feeds when he's ready. Well the hv has told me it's habit and ive got to break it, preferably now before he gets even more set in his ways.

She said it's affecting his growth and i can either let him cry it out or co-sleep. We do co-sleep after his 4am feed and that's fine as hubbie is up for work by then but i draw the line at that-i don't want him in with us all night but i really don't want to do cc either. The one time i didn't feed him he cried for 3hours and only stopped then because it was morning-i told her this and she said 'yes, some babies will cry for that long', well IMO that's just cruel.

I just don't know what to do. Im also worried about him dropping those night feeds, if he's so small, im worried he'll drop even further down the chart without them.

Then she asked about his weaning, i said i was doing BLW which i don't think she'd ever heard of as i had to explain how and what he was eating. She said he needs sugar, im to give him snacks such as custard, cake and biscuits inbetween meals and for pudding. Ive had it bloody drummed into me how bad sugar and 'junk' food is for babies, ive followed every piece of advice to the letter, ive breastfed for 6months (exclusively, it's been bloody hard work), ive been making healthy meals for him, he's having exactly what we have and non of it's right-you just can't win can you??!!! So when he's 5years old, obese and asking for cake after every meal we'll no who to blame-yeh, it'll be me again!!!!

She also told me he doesn't need vitamin drops as he's breatsfed-is this right? I thought they DID need the drops if they're breast fed?

Im going for a good cry now, i know im just being over sensitive, it's not nice to hear you're doing things wrong when all your doing is your best xx

[Modified by: pixiebob on 30 September 2009 12:37:02 ]


  • Hey pixie

    I've been to the HV this morning as well - similar things but not the same.

    I'll try to share my experiences to see if this helps at all...

    Daisy-Mae is now 16 llbs (whooppppeeeeeee - under 25th centile just..) and projectile vomits just about everything I ever give her image

    I went to get her weighed to check she's not losing weight - she hasn't, but then she hasn't been weighed for about 2 months so you'd hope not!

    Daisy has reflux so again it's slightly different, but we've been talking about weaning. My HV (who is very chilled and very sensible) said not to worry about her weight - she's happy, active and developing at about the right rate. In terms of food - I've been going for the puree route as she can't get the hang of BLW - can't grasp anything very well and nothing was going in. However, she grabs the spoon off me and shoves it in her mouth beautifully! So we've agreed to try giving her anything we're eating basically - sandwiches, tonight's dinner which is homemade fish pie, guacamole, eggs etc. We talked about the higher (but still good) fats like avocado, eggs etc and my HV specifically said don't start giving lots of sugary things - instead go for full fat milk, full fat greek yoghurt, eggs, guacamole etc - all still very natural and with good fats...

    I personally would ignore her wonderful advice about cake because there are lots of fats that are much better for him..... image

    Can't help with the vitamin drops I'm afraid...

    Also, I hate the idea of controlled crying (although I know it works really well for some people - I'm just not strong enough to listen to my baby cry!)... Are you still BFing Max or is he having some formula now? Wondering if you'd thought about using hungry baby milk at night? And also what about trying to cluster feed him during the evening?

    I don't think you are doing anything wrong - you are doing a great job and have done a brilliant job with the BFing - that's not easy!

    Have a good cry, by all means (I do, frequently!) but then pick yourself up and write a list of good things that you do with Max to make yourself feel better. After that, have a think about the foods you can give him - perhaps try normal food as we're going to do with Daisy.

    In the meantime, if you fancy a chat, email me!

    love C xxxxxxx
  • I think your HV is taking rubbish!! Why does he need sugar?? If he needs the calories then you can do that by giving him full fat foods, like cream, cheese, butter etc, I had to do this when my daughter was little as she wouldnt eat much so I made sure that what she ate was high in fat but still healthy.

    You are doing everything right, try not to feel down about what she said as she sounds useless!! xx
  • I'm with Jem, she's talking out her arse. It is tottaly normal for bfed babies to drop a centile, it's just down to the fact that the growth charts are based on formula fed babies who grow at a different rate. If you think he needs more sugar give him more fruit, not processed, refined sugar that is in biscuits.and cake! RE the night feeds, does he feed to sleep or does he settle himself afterwards? If he feeds to sleep then it may be habit, and you could look at doing something about that, pick up put down is a much gentler solution than cc. If he goes back down awake then I don't think you have a problem. My lo woke for a feed until he was about 8 months, but it was a quick full feed and then straight back to bed, it gradually got later and later until he didn't need it any more.
    The vitamin drops is your call really. Breast milk doesn't contain enough iron after 6 months, and is short on Vit D as well. The body makes vit D from sunlight and he can get iron from his diet, so if you are happy he has a good diet you don't need the vitamins, neither of my two (both bfed) had them.
    It sounds like you are doing a really good job hun so don't let one stupid hv make you feel bad
    Big hugs
  • Aw , hugs.

    I decided long ago that hv's talk rubbish. For weeks I was told lo was overweight. They asked me to put him on a diet at 4 months. Then when weaned he lost weight and I got a row for him dropping his milk too early. I've never been back.

    I've heard of lots of babies being put on full fat diets but never a sugar diet. El Pinko (posts on here) had to put Molly on a diet which used a lot of cream etc to try and bulk up her weight.

    As for the night feeds. Bedhead raises a good point, does he settle to sleep himself or is he fed to sleep ?

    I knew my lo was night feeding out of habit as he slept through randomly on 3 occassions and wasn't really bothered about his morning bottle.
    So I offered water instead of milk (not so easy if you are exclusively bf) He cried. Of course he did. For ages, hours. But I just kept holding him and cuddling him, wasn't strong enough for CC and leaving him on his own to cry. I offered water every wee while and eventually he fell asleep. Then I lay him in cot. If he woke again I offered water and cuddled again.

    We did this for 2 nights. It was horrid and so hard, I wasn't even sure it was going to work. But my friend advised me to stick with whatever method you choose for 3 nights before giving in.
    On the 3rd night he slept through.

    It might not work for everyone but it worked for us. With the exception of a few teething issues he has been a good sleeper since.

    Good luck, always follow your own instincts. If he is happy, heathy and well loved then that is all that matters. Suz x
  • Your HV sounds like a bit of an idiot to me hun.

    In agree that there are better ways to up the fat intake without resorting to cakes and chocolate. (Full fat milk and dairy - etc).

    As for the night time, how much does he drink during his night feeds? It could be that he doesn't know how to settle himself to sleep, but he may need the extra milk.

    I would try a few different things to try and suss out why he is waking, if you are ff then maybe try giving him a cuddle with a dummy (if you use one) or maybe cooled boiled water instead of milk (or you could be naughty and just make the milk more watery, by missing out a scoop, and gradually decrease until he is on plain old water). Or you could go the other way (and see if he just wants a cuddle) by killing your back and giving a bottle leaning over the cot (you'll need to prop up his head and shoulders if he is too sleepy to sit up himself) or you could give him milk in a sippy cup.

    Basically if he calms down with a cuddle with no milk, then you know it is habbit. If he isn't fussed about the cuddle, it's the milk he wants.

    Hope that makes sense.
    I would ignore your HV - and just do what you think.

  • hi

    i also agree with jem, if he needs 'fattening up' sugar isn't the way to go, especially not cakes, thats just empty calories with no nutritional benefit at all. u could add a little butter when cooking his veg etc instead and yoghurts etc, but cake??? if he is just waking out of habit, will he take a bottle or sippy cup, because i was thinking instead of feeding him u could offer him water, and he might realise this is not worth waking up for, also it could be that he's waking anyway ( as most babies do but we just don't know about it if that makes sense, quite often if we've stayed up late, i've checked in on austin and he's been laying there quietly playing with his toes for example lol) so maybe he's now used to be picked up so the 'pick up put down' thing could work for u too. anyway, whatever the issues are they are not ur fault and perfectly normal, my nephew didn't sleep thru til he was a year old and he was bottle fed so its not anything ur doing. don't let ur hv get u down she's talking crap. ur doing a great job with max and don't let her tell u different

    chin up

    sian and austin xxx
  • Thanks so much for all the replies,

    I'll definately go for the healthy fats rather than the sugar option, thanks everyone who suggested that. He loves avacado and ive just made him eggy bread fried in butter which he demolished! The thing is, he's really well proportioned, he's not skinny at all, he's just petit-like his mummy! Im not underweight but ive got a low BMI so maybe he's just the same.

    Im really not sure if the night wakings are habit or not. I hear him wake in the night and he settles himself back to sleep. He takes 3 full feeds during the night, sometimes he's still awake at the end and will settle himself back to sleep, other times he falls asleep on the boob. I think the first feed must be habit as he wakes for it 2 hours after bedtime and often doesn't feed for very long. I think we'll test the waters with that one. My hubbie always goes to him first and gives him a cuddle, if it's during his feed times-9pm, 12 and 4am then he can't settle him, if it's outside of these times, he'll go back to sleep without a feed.

    He doesn't have a dummy or bottle but drinks water out of an open cup, maybe we could try some hungry baby milk in that.

    Thanks again ladies, i feel better already xx
  • Oh, pixiebob! I am so sorry about all this!

    Firstly, ignore my message to you on Facebook. I hadn't read this when I wrote it and clearly didn't know what I was talking about. image

    Secondly, I don't really know about the diet issue (not a problem I have had with Peter) but I think the high fat rather than high sugar diet sounds the way to go, especially if he is eating as well as it sounds he is.

    Thirdly, I am giving Peter vitamins as I was told this was necessary for bf'd babies after 6 months but Bedhead's advice sounds very sensible.

    Finally, the sleeping. One of the mums in my mum and baby group is having exactly this problem and her daughter is Max's age, give or take a day or so. She was up every two hours last night, poor woman. If he is taking full feeds then I doubt it is habit. Peter woke from habit for a midnight feed for a while but it only lasted a couple of minutes whereas his full feeds last for 15. He dropped the midnight feed of his own accord after a while, but I would definitely try dropping the early one.

    The other thing you might try is something my baby book recommends as a variant on controlled crying which involves sitting next to the crib in a chair to reassure him rather than actually leaving the room. The chair gets moved further away each night until you have moved it out of the room altogether. Not as tough as full controlled crying but possibly might help?

    Best of luck, hun. It is so tough when you aren't getting enough sleep but you are clearly doing the best for your son in terms of diet. He looks (in photographs) and sounds like a very healthy, happy little boy.
  • HI hun, i think you have my hv :lol: She talked out her arse as well and had no clue about breast fed babies!!!

    Molly was a shocking 10lbs 14ozs at birth and within a day the weight was dropping off her, she went down to 10lbs 2ozs in 24 hours but this was fine/normal as my milk wasn't through yet but she was getting all the health benefits from the colostrum!

    She was never meant to be that big in the first place and she fed well and slept ok, we co slept with her pretty much from the start and fed most of the night, i would nod off inbetween feeds, poor hubby was on the sofa for a good few months!

    She dropped and dropped down the centiles but was always happy, fed little and often and was sleeping ok at night.

    I weaned her at 6 months onto solids started with the puree/expressed milk mixed with baby rice etc, she wasn't gaining much weight so was advised to add butter, cream, custard etc to her homemade meals. This made her sick and windy!

    I then decided to listen to me and i know what's best for my little girl so kind of switched to blw. I gave her lots of finger foods/meals we were eating chopped up and let her dig in with her hands, she loved this and stuck to the 25th centile line, she dropped down a little bit when she started to crawl but was sleeping through so i saw no problems with this.

    We have now moved house and have a new hv who is fab, she wasn't concerned about her weight as she could see she was happy, healthy and was just going to be tall and skinny.

    Molly is now 12 months (eek!) and she is breast fed morning and night and has lots of fruit and healthy food during the day and she is a very happy little girl.

    Go with your instincts and remember those stupid charts are based on formula and jar fed babies in the 1950's!!

    I am a member of the La Leche League and they have been fantastic support, you should search for a group in your area.

    You are a fab mummy and doing your best for your son! Don't feel pressured into pleasing your hv! x x

    Please e-mail me if you want anymore help/advice

    Emma x
  • Juat a thought - have you tried giving him more milk in the day (obviously I mean bf or ff - not cows milk)?

    It is a nightmare getting formula into Abby (she prefers the real/solid stuff and turns her nose up at milk) but I just offer he bottles loads, and give her milk in a sippy cup (like every hour - 2 hours) she'll only have an ounce or two at a time, but I get about an extra 200ml in her a day.

    Just thinking - the more he feeds in the day, the less he'll need at night.

  • Thankyou all for replying. I really don't knw hwy i bother with the hv, i should just ask you ladies-you all speak far more sense!!

    nikki-i do feed Max at every opportunity, my mum said the other day that im 'always putting something in his mouth', usually my boob!!

    We're going to try and get him to drop his first feed-i really don't think he needs that one. We'll then take it from there.

    I just think he's the size he's naturally meant to be at the moment so all this sugar talk is rubbish. He's SO active, i mean ridiculously so, he doesn't sit still for a single second. From the mintue he wakes up until the end of the day he's moving, he won't sit on my knee for a second, he's a total wriggle bum and is trying so hard to crawl, he's spent all day today doing head stands on his tippy-toes, i honestly mean ALL day, he's like the duracell bunny!! He's just burning off whatever i feed him!xx
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